I downvote a lot, but I tell people why, and I am open to explanations if I am in the wrong. Some whales seem to have vendettas instead of merely policing spam, plagiarism, and reward pool abuse. I'll go through the list and see whose posts are still pre-payout and might be worth an upvote in an effort to counterbalance the whales.
Who cares about the average? It is the outliers that are worth observing and thinking through. That is where you can learn the most about the world around you.
Some of these downvotes make a lot of sense, and there is some sketchy stuff to be uncovered, but others don't make a lot of sense at all. I am finding plenty of things that deserve downvotes and some that need counter-upvotes. We'll see how long my vote power lasts in both categories.
You'll have to take that up with whoever is downvoting you. You still have a reputation of 78. That is impressive. Was it gained during the days of vote-buying on Steemit, or earned by legitimate content creation? What got you where you are? Can you do it again from scratch, or by turning over a new leaf on this account?
I didn't bought upvotes because I know that it is frowned upon. I have my own niche mostly about myself and gained support as I also support my friends here.
I know that I made a mistake and apparently it infuriated powerful whales here so I was cancelled plus of course smaller accounts that are jealous about my achievements fueled those big stake holder's rage not to mention my opinion about the contentious fork.
Anyway if I maybe given another chance then of course I will be thankful and abide all by the written and unwritten rules.
I hope that the hive door is not permanently closed for me. I'm still waiting at it's doorstep.
I would love to see you back on Hive.
It saddens me the number of quality content producers who have been forced off Hive because of malicous downvoting.
I find them all on Blurt which is gaining at Hive's expense.
Exactly, yes.. It does not seem to be controversy in general that is the problem, but specifically the highlighting of topics that could hurt the agenda of the pharmaceutical industry and generally those who are seeking full spectrum dominance.
Yep, there are about 4 whales on Hive who want to make it as single-sided and anti-truth as Facebook or Twitter... Unfortunately Hive is based on Proof of Stake, so the only thing that matters here is who has the most money, so they're getting what they want.
If the fork didn't prove to people that the governance of DPoS is broken then this kind of downvoting shit should. If not for the wonderful old community that lingers on, this place would be completely overtaken by the voting bots.
You forget about numbers. Remeber the steem wars against JS. Together we are strong. We just have to all be involved more in the xonsensus on how hive and whatever front end should operate as
This is cool and a good way to allow the community to see who is being downvoted and can step in if they choose. This takes work to find this stuff, and of course, I'm sure a lot of what is being downvoted is rightfully so, but there is always stuff that gets "nuked" where it probably shouldn't have. I'll look into this list and start digging around and seeing if I can help.
I've said for a while Hive still has 2 polarizing issues that often get mixed up and lost in the weeds. There is a downvote problem on Hive. Actually, 2 downvote problems, to be precise. The first people are too overhanded with the downvotes, zeroing outpost repeatedly; even comments can "smother" another user. This is not good behavior if the person being targeted makes "legit" content, trying to get involved in Hive and join the ecosystem via gov token accumulation via earning it. This, in my eyes, can be a form of "censorship" in the fact that a bigger entity can deprive a smaller entity out of "earning" gov token via PoB (can still earn via DAO/witness.) So I don't like that and try to counter it when I see it, admittingly I need to add some more resources in this depo; I used to have an "anti-bully" account with a 500k stake to counter malicious DVs, I may look into this again.
The other problem is there are not nearly enough downvotes. This is mainly because downvotes are public, involve monetary value, and most do not like confrontation. So you have the ones that love confrontation overdoing it and the ones that do not like confrontation underdoing it. I'm not here to judge what should be what and if the payouts were all the same, and I saw a healthy amount of DV to Upvote ratio (like u see on web2 platforms with their like counters), then I would assume the free market is doing its thing. But when I go to post after post on trending and do not see a single downvote, I understand that we have a flaw there that can be improved. I have to automatically assume then that most content is "overvalued" simply because, in a healthy system, you have disagreements you have downvotes. If the ones being overhanded would lighten up, try to avoid nuking something to zero, esp if it has a lot of organic votes. Try to be in line with others, at least that is my advice. And to the ones not downvoting at all, do not be afraid to throw a small DV out there, even if it's a fraction of a penny; it just allows us to get to a place where we can have full curation which involves negative curation IE downvotes. That helps everyone on Hive.
Thanks for the upvote support - much appreciated - let's see how many of the downvoting accounts combine to nullify it. lol.
I have only looked through a small percentage of the 150 posts here, but I can see plenty that don't have an obvious reason for being downvoted to oblivion and where no comment was even provided by the downvoter. This feels akin to Facebook 'randomly' blocking posts or suspending accounts - it's really the worst possible situation for a network that is marketing itself as being an alternative to this stuff. It doesn't really matter if the post is still visible on the blockchain because no-one will see it there unless they look (which they won't). It's abundantly clear that certain entities are using witness rewards and other sources to build power with intent to have a high enough reputation to shut down any account whatsoever. I will update the next report to have more useful information that will help to make the more problematic downvotes more visible.
I think your point about there not being enough downvotes is debatable. Everyone has their own perspective of how they view community and how they view healthy interaction. A lot of people don't want to be the person who puts others down in their moment of glory. Some people are worried about retaliation if they downvote a whale. This is totally understandable, since it is clear that some of them seem to get turned on by downvoting others. The risk to benefit ratio of downvoting a whale's post (or one of their friends), means that few people will feel motivated to do it - and so we have, overall, few downvotes being cast.
Ultimately, proof of brain is about subjective valuation of content and the downvotes weren't originally intended to be used to show 'lack of brain' in the post - they were there for policing reward pool abuse really, afaik. Obviously, people can use Hive - within the code's parameters - in their own way, but we don't really have a shared vision or consensus on best practice in the community.
With perception management and information control being such a massive 'market' (which is part of why Web 2.0 companies being massively wealthy), it's understandable that people want to leave Web 2.0 behind. It's not so healthy to have web 3.0 products being run behind the scenes by people manoeuvring to place themselves in the position of information gatekeepers simply through the scale of their stake. Essentially, if we are serious about delivering on the promise of Web 3.0, there has to be very close attention paid to preventing centralisation. DPOS with witness voting as it stands, ironically, facilitates centralisation as much as it facilitates decentralisation. Whether or not the outcome is a good one seems to mostly come down to the actions of those with the most stake (which therefore includes the top 20 witnesses).
It's great to see you are engaging in these matters in a serious way that is pointing in the right direction. It's actually sad to me to see literally no other 'whales' even paying attention. The claim made by some of the downvoters is that actually the whales want this downvoting to happen, I can't say if that is true or not. Your plan to set aside funds for downvoting is great to hear - maybe there's a way you can work with @r0nd0n to make that work more practically, without you needing to be a full time content cop yourself!
The reality, though, is that the downvoters have probably close to $10M between them, so I'm not sure how much of a difference this will make, but it's worth a go.
I just can’t understand why the affects you so much. I feel like you have missed the point of where hive is going. This conversation will be null and void in a year from now. Too many things being built that make downvoting for anything else but rewards disagreements useless. If anything I think your issue should be with the main blogging platforms, which unfortunately for them, cannot currently claim they are censorship resistant, at least until they have done further work on their trending algos . Your issue should not be making out like hive is a censorship tool, (which it is not). I think you need a bit of patience maybe until this system matures a bit more. It is not a censorship tool as you describe above. Some of the front ends are censorship tools. That is their issue, it is not hives fault that their trending algos are relatively unsophisticated
A quick fix would be to create a new front end from condenser or ecency and make the trending feed the downvoted content. Ppl could easily view what has been down voted and either upvote it from there or enjoy consuming them content from there directly. If this worked out, down voters who currently think they are downvoting to censor (which they are not) would have the difficult task of not being able to zero rewards in order to keep it off of trending on both the front end i talk about above as well as the major front ends on hive which unfortunately, at present, have stake based censorship in built into their trending feeds.
Some of the major front ends may do well to review this down vote list and have a way to legitimately restore the positions in the trending feeds so that the down voting of the few legit blogs only results in rewards disagreements, but not loss of position on trending prior to the down vote
Hive is fundamentally a blockchain, not a UI. So the most important decisions and structures exist at the blockchain level and probably always will. This means that while it is possible for UIs to adjust their appearance in order to accommodate certain scenarios, it will always be the blockchain that counts more. As I said in our recent chat, since society basically runs on money at this point, whether a creator is interested in money or not, he/she is forced to be because content creation is a constant contest for attention and the more resources people have, the more they can take part in that contest. Excluding money from discussion of the 'censorship' aspect is kind of cherry picking the situation.
The fact remains that the Hive blockchain, by design, allows people to draw attention to themselves via either quality content or just through having the most stake. The aim of those who do this mostly through using stake appears to be simply to make more profit, but they may also hive hidden ideological agenda or even be being paid to act one out covertly. The more that those with stake can dominate those who are the creators, the less the creators will want to be here - which serves the 'stake posters' up to a point as they get even more returns until the token price crashes.
So, essentially, we have a situation where people can get filthy rich (or richer) as a result of limiting the growth of other people - specifically. This is actually how capitalism in general works too, but fans of capitalism rarely admit this. I know first hand that some of the wealthiest people are more interested in stopping the growth of potential competitors than they are actually adding anything of value to the world. The more this problem continues, the more of a shitshow Hive will become, regardless of what UIs do. You can't sweep under the rug that a small number of people are doing whatever they can to absorb as much rewards as possible. Even if the downvoted posts remain visible, the reward pool will still be being reduced away from the will of the community and towards those who are willing to use downvoting as a profit generator.
I am fully open to layer 2 solutions resolving this and that's great - but we aren't there yet. As I said, I am just living in the present moment, responding to what arises.
Just please have some patience before u go on about hive being a censorship tool. It is not. Some of us have our cocks on the block building systems that cater to people like u.
I stopped chasing hive rewards years ago (I really did) I’m simply not interested in them. The earlier we get bloggers and creators away from reliance on the rewards the better. That will be much easier with other monetisation tools being built on hive such as value4value streaming, ad systems and donations systems as well as being able to easily earn in other cryptos such as eth and btc.
U are responding slightly prematurely IMO. If we start to fail at the ability be tools, hold us to account. But don’t say hive is a censorship tool. This is completely disingenuous and undermines the effort, time and money that people such as myself are putting in to build systems that solve problems specifically for ‘controversial’ creators such as you. Hey, come get stuck in and help us build. The time spent on these blogs would be much more affective it used building the tools
I am not saying that 'hive is a censorship tool', I have never said that. If it was then I wouldn't be here at all. All I'm saying is that with the parameters of downvoting set as they are and with the lack of features available to combat malicious downvoting, we have a problem. If I were 'king' of Hive, I would probably do a quick update to switch to only one free downvote per day - but only after doing analysis to predict what that would do. I would also look at doing the kinds of things that you are doing, it all needs to be done.
My psychology is one of hating lies and especially people presenting as if they are 'helping', when in fact they are fully and maliciously exploiting from behind a lie. This kind of thing has gotten more people killed on this planet than anything else (see: pretty much all wars ever). If I put time into helping to build something with the potential to genuinely improve society and maybe save lives in the process, I will obviously take issue with people trying to use it to do the opposite. Silence is both tacit consent and also complicity, so I am not silent.
I am happy to help out where I can with building next gen things on Hive. At present, though, I have debts to pay following my trip to Australia to help my friend there and several big (non hive) projects too. I would need 3 or 4 of me to be able to find more time to do other things in a useful way that doesn't result in mental breakdown. lol. So basically, I have limited time to do anything at all unpaid - I haven't even done the vacuum cleaning. ;)
Maybe your message is being miss construied then. It feels like u are attacking the base layer of hive. U? (and several others) are posting on blurt and the message I’m getting back is that I are there because u are being censored on hive. To be clear, U are not being censored on hive. I may agree that U are being censored on peakd and hive blog and any other platform that only uses the hive upvote balance on content to drive their trending feed. But the over all message here is that ppl are leaving due to censorship and rewards disagreements. The latter, yes, but the former needs to be taken up with the front ends, not hive IMO. alternatively keep building new tools like we are to solve these issues
I woild avoid austria for now. Things are getting pretty hextic at this moment. Hundred thousands on the street and the gov is sending their army to force lockdown on all.
How is anyone responding prematurely to a product that has been around for 5 years at this point? I've been here for 4 years and we were getting downvoted back then too.
Like I said, most of these issues will be a mute point in a year from now with the monetisation and community driven censorship tools that are being created atm. These are not being taken into account and so I believe that these points are premature.
There's whitepapers, bluepapers, lightpapers, etc. I've read the gist of it at some point in the past sure. I try not to read too much into anything, prefer to see it when it is finished.
I meant in general, theres tons of whitepapers/bluepapers/lightpapers out there for tons of projects and I try to read a bunch :) Time constraints! heh
We've been hearing various promises and reasons that we should just wait for things to get better, since 2016. At the start of Steem, there were whales using their stake to shut down accounts who annoyed them, creators they disagreed with, etc.
Over the years, there have been waves of high & low, there have been quiet periods and full on flag wars, and all along the way those who challenge the corporate propaganda narrative have been getting downvoted (not for quality, plagiarism, or over-rewarding, but simply for challenging the lies), and that has sky-rocketed since 2020, as more creators and content have been looking for homes that won't censor them like FB, Twatter, etc.
My blog is the perfect example of how they are only down-voting based on their dogmatic ideology - they don't care if I make over $60 a post for my videos, but if I mention the jab or censorship, they 100% DV it, even if it was a much more in-depth research piece, that took me dozens of hours to put together.
Yes. I have been here, working my balls off full time, that whole time. I know the history well. So well, that I’m contributing to making these types of discussions nullified. I’m tired of hive being classed as a censoring system, when I do not believe it is at all. Some of The front ends censor, I agree, but the solution to that is to get ones head down and build solutions IMO.
Would you consider trying to change your thinking away from anything to do with the reward pool? Chasing it creates toxicity and negativity. Once one isolates themselves from any involvement in the garnering of attention or monetary incentive by being rewarded from the pool, It changes the paradigm in which one sees hive.
Hive is the perfect censorship resistant system. It’s better than anything out there, by far. It’s not completed yet, that’s for sure. There are various things being built (partly by me and other amazing hiveans) to leverage it’s censorship resistant capabilities. The rewards pool will become a relatively insignificant piece of the hive eco system over time. Due to community driven content regulation policies and content gateways as well as income streams that do not rely on the rewards pool. Hopefully the main blogging platforms will evolve their trending systems over time too. If they do not, ppl will build their own systems and the free market will fill the gaps.
Oh yeah, I'm definitely down to move the focus of voting, and the PoS elements, away from $$
I've been brainstorming and trying to get going a few projects (whether layer 1 or 2) for quality news distribution (downvotes only for plagiarism, no sources, etc.), Freedom Cells, and various other needs/communities to be covered. I like the idea of voting stake only being earned through receiving votes, and not able to be bought/sold - with a totally separate currency for tipping, buying etc.
Hive is the perfect censorship resistant system. It’s better than anything out there, by far. It’s not completed yet, that’s for sure.
While I agree with this at the base code level, that is outweighed by that history, and the Stake that exists (maliciously downvoting those who disagree with them, thus slowing the stake growth of both creators & curators of differing opinions - maintaining their monopoly.)
For it to work, the experiment would have to be re-run, with clear intentions & principles. Trying to change the system from the inside, when the "law" (the code) can be changed any time by those in charge... Sounds familiar.
If you did a Fair launch, across people who all agreed to a much more specific ethos, then we could get somewhere new, very quickly.
Good points. Sounds like u need to fork. I’m going to focus on hive tho. There will be so many other monetisation tools that chasing rewards from the pool will be kind of frowned upon in the future. Using ur external rewards to buy more hive in order to affect governance, well that will be another thing. Platforms and users will of course have to hold hive for resource credits, although even that will radically change with resource credit delegations.
I understand what you are saying but as someone on the receiving end of this list, I am in a better position to understand someone at gunpoint not buying the "Relax, in one year we have a voting system to decide if the bullet goes out or not" stance.
Do you understand the censorship is not limited to the trending feed? I am not talking of the fact you have to actively click on "Display comment" to read this (which is quite soft of a censorship but still a hurdle IRL). I am talking of the fact that a base level post is not shown even in the Recent feed. Nor you get a notification I replied to you or tagged @starkerz (unless you happen to be on a cool frontend). That is an actual dealbreaker and it is no coincidence multiple DVers off the list have openly sweated their targets' reputation score.
I root for the alternative frontend but once it is live it is still - you know - an alternative frontend for the minority that is censorship-(over)sensitive.
Threespeak doesn’t do trending this way. Ura is never censored on threespeak trending front end. When we release our blogging front end we will just give the option to select which type of trending you like
I appreciate your effort in offering me a safe chambre separee but I prefer a fair fighting ground in the open.
Being fixed on the Trending part is clearly not going to win me for your platform as you are ignoring the POV I tried to explain.
I know it is not your fault that a political DVer overrewarded your comment that is essentially asking to hide people behind the wall. I will try not to DV it. Seven days is a long time and I can have a bad moment. If I do, it is nothing personal. I trust you to make the life behind your wall as tolerable as possible but I do not want it to be the only option for the people who have supported me (even if I do not share their agenda).
I really do not think my DV would wake you up if that UV did not. I just hope it would be understandable on a human level in case it happens.
I thinknit better if it had its own feed rather than having on trending. And the feed was public. That way, as we all know, would ha e the chance to see what has been taken off. So no more invisible posts. Its all accounted for and displayable on the front end. Except for, extreme nsfw ofcourse such as pornographic material, pedophelia, real gory content, etc.
This is a great comment, and definitely addresses that two-sides-of-the-same-coin issue that we face around down-votes.
Between the 4-5 people with millions of stake, more than happy to zero out accounts and hide posts with dozens of real comments... and the thousands of people with not enough stake to matter, or who are still traumatized (mildly joking) from the previous whale wars and flag wars on Steem... it's a mess out there.
And to the ones not downvoting at all, do not be afraid to throw a small DV out there, even if it's a fraction of a penny; it just allows us to get to a place where we can have full curation which involves negative curation IE downvotes. That helps everyone on Hive.
The problem here is (from what I've seen in the past), down-voting anything that hasn't already been approved by hivewatchers or steemcleaners is a good way for someone to get on the radar of those DV-Whales, and have their account zero'd out because of it, and/or having the posts & comments of people they support attacked, if they don't have their own content to be downvoted.
I stopped using the DVs on tribesteemup because of that simple fact: I was only downvoting actual shitposts/spam, but because some folks with stake didn't like it (haejin at that point I believe), they zero'd out dozens of posts from as many people, just because tribesteemup had voted on them.
Part of the issue is that this is pretty one sided. It's people downvoting posts in our #informationwar or #deepdives that doesn't fit the MSM narrative they have been fed, so they see it and nuke it. Some accounts continually get nuked just for questioning why they were nuked(something bernie used to do and not many countered it).
In the #informationwar and #deepdives community there have been 5 or 6 people that I personally know that had a combined stake of over 250k HP, who powered it down and sold it off this year due to constantly getting downvoted.
Our @informationwar and @deepdives account combined projects so that we have more upvote power in order to counter DVs in our communities, but it isn't always enough.
We have been manually curating for over 4 years and have a solid mission(link in our about section on @informationwar). I am trying to get more delegations to @informationwar so that we can continue to manually curate and get some sort of reward, it's super tough to read for 30 to 60 minutes every day for a part time curator while earning like 4 or 5 Hive from curation rewards/day.
Some of the larger projects have like 5 to 10 people curating and they have huge delegations and followings. Our group has just been puttering along for awhile, and we have an influx of new people posting into our communities that are seeing the censorship can be worse here, your rep can get zeroed and all your posts never show up unless someone already follows you.
I agree with downvoting obvious spam/theft of content and stuff not labeled NSFW that should be, but other than that I don't understand why people focus on "over rewarded" content for only the political realms and not for everything else. I don't see anybody downvoting the 50 to 200 USD posts about travel blogs/food blogs and other stuff that is likely stolen content by content farmers. Most of the posts on trending take almost no thought to make and are just blindly upvoted by whales to get their curation rewards.
Maybe one day the truth community will have a lot more power and be able to better defend ourselves, but seriously, nobody and I mean nobody in the truth community is downvoting these posts on trending and if there's anything that certainly needs to be "adjusted downwards" for being overrewarded its every single post that is in the top 100. We could go on a huge downvoting spree and rile up all our 100+ upvoters in the curation trail to start handing down -50USD downvotes to these posts(which is aboutt what we could do) but we don't do that ever and don't plan on it. Instead we get downvoted without ever having downvoted others first, while those same downvoters give out huge upvotes to pure garbage that can be found on instagram/twitter.
And the second that our group started getting DVers out there, you better believe all the whales would crash down on us ever harder. Posts in #informationwar or #deepdives would never be positive again if we all started downvoting the shitposts the whales are upvoting. It's too one sided.
@gringalicious was run off the platform. Just a food blogger who apparently got into a fight with the spam patrol. She did re-post her off-blockchain blog content, and recycled some old posts, so she wasn't squeaky clean, but it became a fight that ruined her effort to return and start fresh.
@krnel@logiczombie@lucylin@frot@dwinblood, and multiple others I don't remember off the top of my head, powered down most of their stake and got rid of it due to downvoting.
I think if you summed up just the ones I named, it would have been over 250k HP if memory serves.
Thankfully they are still posting on the chain though, and we are able to reward them with our @informationwar + @deepdives curationt trail.
If only people understood the real information war is won by evidence and argumentation instead of blanket downvoting. A lot of the stuff in those communities is nonsense, but that's part of freedom of the press. I can see the argument for downvoting falsehood, but as I noted in a prior post (now past payout) about web2.0 social media, our goal here should be discourse even if we're dealing with Brandolini's Law.
A lot of what most people think of as "press" is nonsense propaganda that is pushed by people who have no problem lying about anything and everything.
The "news" and the "press" has always been ideological throughout the history of the written and spoken word. To control information is to control the narrative, whether it is overtly false or not. In the USSR everyone knew the propaganda was bullshit, but they had to tow the party line or get put into a gulag. In the USA and many western societies we are under an illusion that news organizations are truth warriors and try to report stories accurately/fairly/truthfully/factually and without prejudice, we just haven't had our gulags in the USA yet, but it will come eventually. Every empire collapses given enough time.
Nicholas Sandman successfully had CNN settle with him and is currently in the process of getting settlements from all the other major news, who all lied and smeared him as a racist who did something to an Indian man. Even though the entire encounter was on video, the MSM chopped up the video and spread it around for months and they cut it up to fit their narrative of "white person does racist thing" despite him not doing anything racist.
This is one example among hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands over the years of outright lies, EVEN WHEN we can look up the truth ourselves and see the entire video of the encounter. Iraq's WMDs that the MSM lied us into war with, etc.
The danger doesn't come from "alt-news" that barely has any views, it comes from "Cathedral", the "orthodoxy", the "religious" who consume MSM propaganda and never challenge it ever. These are hugely centralized power structures of 5 major corporations who control almost exclusively "the news" and what politicians and regular people "trust" and do. The danger is from uncritically believing what Don Lemon on CNN tells you, when he says "maybe Malaysian flight that was lost years ago flew into a black hole", yes he really said that, and he wasn't kidding(go watch him say it).
You're not going to find almost any "danger" in our communities that you call nonsense.
I have written extensively on the nature of journalism as we know it. Yellow journalism never went away. It just wore a mask of fake neutrality between ww2 and the dawn of the internet.
There is a lot of nonsense in the alternative media, though. Alex Jones has been right about a lot, but wrong about a lot, too. He's just the highest profile example, of course. We need to exercise discernment most when we find ourselves in agreement with someone else's biases and conclusions.
I got sick of seeing other people down voted. I never really got hit by a big brigade. I had maybe a handful of my posts brigaded but that's about it. I just got tired of the hypocrisy and seeing it done to others.
Yes, but it also removed the cost for policing spam. Before, fighting spam and abuse meant foregoing curation rewards. The people working hardest for blockchain integrity and reward pool abuse correction were effectively hobbled. That was bad, too.
COnsidering myself and others were delegating power to them to offset that often I don't think that was as much a factor. Creating additional accounts for that purpose and then allowing people to delegate power to them worked. Also if they begin to misuse that power the delegations could be removed.
Maybe this comment thread is an appropriate place to point out how there is no rhyme or reasoning to downvotes and they often seem to represent the views of individuals when downvoting on political content specifically or in this case Upvoting what seems to plagiarized Racist memes by two witnesses, one having significant stake and the other arguably the most active with comments. Continued silence by the witnesses on downvotes and silence on witnesses support for racist plagiarized racist memes is tiresome. Downvotes are not being used to protect the rewards pool. BULLSHIT look at trending.
Most of the trending page is nonsense, upvotes by whales.
Whales were downvoting some stuff in IW/DD that was earning less than 50 USD, now they are currently upvoting posts for 200 to 300 with the price of Hive being 2.40 USD +(not downvoting them, which would align with their supposed "downvoting for being over-rewarded" mantra they chant). It's always ok for them to do what they want, always bad for others to do the same.
Yeah its a problem for sure. In my opinion the greatest problem with this DV thing becomes when racism and threats of violence is totally ok but anti-government content that is directed towards centralized people like gates or harmful untested medical procedures that is purely experimental gotta go? We really do have pro fiat pro government whales, racist witnesses and wanna be cosmic jesters but having our activist celebrity like accounts being fake or inactive doesn't help either.
Silence by witnesses or DV by witnesses that have the support of the community while the community ignores the witnesses actions is pretty concerning and a gross form of governance when the people want a phatty upvote and will be willing to keep their mouth shut for one... kind of like at work.
I am quite surprised to see @theycallmedan and his response to DVs. I always thought he was a counter to the flags but I guess not when you need votes to get a proposal passed and the people that have them are the flaggers allegedly. Now maybe he has been too busy building speak network to notice but the flags are happening in one of threespeaks main communities. I knew of @threespeak way before joining Steem in '17 because they supported a few of my favorite content creator on youztube.
Just weird that the community supports projects by people who are so hostile and seemingly pro fiat the way they down vote the kind of content they do. Its actually quite gross and alarming that such large stake is used to support the oppression of content that goes against centralization and fiat.
There's probably only really a few projects on the chain that are pro decentralization.
Seems like most of the people here and content posted now is just fluff stuff easily found on other social media platforms.
@informationwar has been doing its thing for like 4 years now in our #informationwar tag and #deepdives is going to release a token soon for this kind of thing. We teamed up with @v4vapid to get better support out to all the people who are continually archiving important imformation.
EVEN IF all the posts in IW/DD or similar communities are taken down to 0 rewards, at least the information is still there. I'm a glass half full kinda guy haha! But in all seriousness, we are going to continue to try and grow our support. Hive price going higher will certainly help that, now our upvotes are worth more $ so we can upvote 50 people now and give out the same rewards in $ as we could last month and only do 25 people.
Gotta keep fighting and pushing forward and we aren't going away!
Nice! I love what Leo and POB is doing. Their content is seo optimized it seems and hive blockchain rewards are not included on their front end from what I can tell. Supposedly the one of the main selling points of the speak network was to be able to by pass the DV system and curate content more dynamically but the response left here by Dan on this thread was disheartening and tone deaf I feel.
Glad to see V4vapid more active (or at least not on a autovoter like I suspected initially) and that tokenized solutions are finally happening for the activist/anti-centralization communities like information war and Deepdives.
I joined forces with him to better reward the communities.
If you like what @informationwar is doing it would be awesome if you delegated some HP to our cause , follow the curation trail on hive.vote or if you like manually upvoting stuff browse through and find stuff you like in our tags/communities :)
We will take all the support we can get, trying to onboard larger names in the social media world also via our reachout on twitter/youtube.
My experience with the activist community recently was extremely disheartening with how I saw the egregious and hostile attacks by witnesses and large stake holders in both deep dives and information while engaging daily on content in the communities not to mention lack of support and attacks from within the community that was reported to the FBI and caused unnecessary police presence in my neighborhood and helicopters over my house for days.
I really got 0 to minimal support from the community with the exception of @kennysgaminglife who has always, when push came to shove, supported these communities and myself. So I can not complain too much. It is just if community members wont support my content and make threats of violence on me while hivewatchers sits by, laughs and DMs me to say stop upvoting comments, we condone threats of violence with our silence but not upvoting comments so watch out.
So I am not excited about these communities on HIVE that should be better supportted in a decentralized crypto space. But plutocracy has soured the experienced.
I will consider delegating HP to your cause but the downvotes and lack of witness support and silence for these hostile attacks in our communities of Truth really impacts my mental health negatively.
Chasing high APRs, curating artists and posting about tokens has helped me better use HIVE.
I didnt spend 5g on Hive power delegation to curate content just to be dissed and ignored by the entire community or have the content I curated flagged to 0 causing unneeded financial stress.
This specific post you made was upvoted by deepdives at the time.
My experience with the activist community recently was extremely disheartening with how I saw the egregious and hostile attacks by witnesses and large stake holders in both deep dives and information while engaging daily on content in the communities not to mention lack of support and attacks from within the community that was reported to the FBI and caused unnecessary police presence in my neighborhood and helicopters over my house for days.
People reported you to the FBI and they flew helicopters over your house? I am not sure what this is supposed to mean or what you are referring to.
The curation trail of Deep Dives + Informationwar is over 500k HP in total. We can't upvote every post, we upvote the majority of them in #informationwar #deepdives or in the iw/dd community.
I really got 0 to minimal support from the community with the exception of @kennysgaminglife who has always, when push came to shove, supported these communities and myself. So I can not complain too much. It is just if community members wont support my content and make threats of violence on me while hivewatchers sits by, laughs and DMs me to say stop upvoting comments, we condone threats of violence with our silence but not upvoting comments so watch out.
So I am not excited about these communities on HIVE that should be better supportted in a decentralized crypto space. But plutocracy has soured the experienced.
The support we have has been built up over 4 years and we continue to grow. We have upvoted many posts that get downvoted in our communities and most of the time we easily overpower the downvoter, that has changed in the last few months as larger downvoters are downvoting. We are growing as best we can. I've put thousands of hours into this project over the years, its extremely time consuming. If you know how we can raise tons of HP and become able to negate downvotes I am all ears, if you want to start getting the word out to others and putting 10 hours + each week into growing the effort, or start your own effort, please do. We need all the help we can get. This is extremely time intensive and stressful for what we do and we get nothing for it as we are all volunteers.
I will consider delegating HP to your cause but the downvotes and lack of witness support and silence for these hostile attacks in our communities of Truth really impacts my mental health negatively.
Chasing high APRs, curating artists and posting about tokens has helped me better use HIVE.
I didnt spend 5g on Hive power delegation to curate content just to be dissed and ignored by the entire community or have the content I curated flagged to 0 causing unneeded financial stress.
I don't blame you for not liking what's happening, I don't like it either. But let's also be real about whats happening here, the super majority of posts are not downvoted to 0 in #informationwar or #deepdives, a few are occasionally, so this isn't an all out war that everyone should be super stressed out about. When the downvotes happen we step in and negate them and move on with our day. We have tried reasoning with whales before and they don't want to hear it, there's nothing else that can be done in negotiating with them at this point, they downvote we upvote, we have more upvotes than them.
If everyone pulled together we could stop this permanently, there are more minnows and dolphins than there are whales, the minnows and dolphins combined have way more HP than whales do. We could outvote them as witnesses and get people into power who would do good things. We aren't there yet, though that movement is starting to take off.
There is a reason I still have my infowars token staked. I figured they were from you. I looked at deepdives and information war as the same community especially since tags are similar.
Did you look at the link I provided and read the comments? The person making multiple threats of violence was who was reported but still caused unneeded police presence in my life for days. just giving an example.
I dont just aimlessly consume content as not everyone can be a @ura-soul who in my opinion is the most well versed and solid content creator for the truth communities. There is a lot of people who want to focus on youtube personalities and Q larps that I honestly cant digest. Seeing such an intelligent and well informed individual getting ruthlessly attacked it disheartening.
The witness votes expiring is something to look forward too but how impactful it will be is to be determined as some are concerned they can simply use their stake to vote for themselves or their friends which highlights how community governance really only applies to the amount of stake one holds.
As I have said in comments outside this thread, I think DPoS will take some time to even out on to the community in regards to witness voting and governance to better reflect the community as a whole. As it is though everything seems reflective of real life on HIVE in comparison to the real world so perhaps we have transcended or added to DPoS in weird way outside of stake.
Maybe these people you onboard can be more of JamesC types that invest into the community and help increase the overall stake of the community. I agree things can change over night. I appreciate your steadfast commitment to the community.
Thanks for your kind words and support. I am working on a website for Hive that should be live in the near future that hosts Untrending (downvote) info as well as shows the effect that the witness decay system would have if it were live right now, so at least we can know what the future holds in that sense.
Bringing in wealthier information specialists and 'truthers' into the blockchain is a great idea but my attempts to do that so far haven't gone anywhere - partially because people don't see a clear 100% reliable investment and partially for silly reasons, such as that they don't find the UI and signup process straightforward enough!
Yeah downvoting key people like @lukewearechange (which last I saw that was happening less since it was shown his support for hive on twitter and amount of traffic he brings to hive.) and @highimpactflix does not help with onboarding when people like Tim pool who is building a huge business is close buddies with Luke and undoubtedly sees and understand the situation clear since it has carried over from Steem. Heck, I can not even tell if Highimpactflix was hacked recently or took back over his account from the people that manage it or if Luke really is managing his own account since it would appear he does nothing with his earnings here and only reposts his youtube videos.
There is a reason content creators chose LBRY over hive for content creation and why LBRY is more successful than it should be can arguably be attributed to the years of massive downvotes towards the hyper connected truth community that moves together as they are either censored, banned or downvoted where ever they go because of centralized interests.
LBRY and most/all other options are actually centralised by design and this will most likely become more of a problem as more time passes and more experience is gained. I think that a layer 2 solution on Hive has the best chance of providing a true solution for 'the truth community', but in 100% of the examples of these people trying to solve the problem that I have seen so far, they either lack understanding or get greedy - leading to not much at all. Donald Turnip's 'Truth' network will be the next big flop most likely. lol.
Yeah @theouterlight lost me when he admitted to posting to rumble the very supposed exclusive content that was made available to Hive and his personal web 2 site. But really that was the last straw as he stopped doing doing docs and refused to do his own research on Ivermectin and simply phoned a friend on it.
I think whoever created LEO's front end as well as seo optimized it is brilliant. Perhaps @leofinance devs can help or provide pointers. But I am sure you got this. You are hyper intelligent and nothing can stop you.
Provide a platform to highlight downvotes is brilliant and kind of makes these people building projects on Hive maybe think twice before downvoting to be jester or because they want to destroy an account because of political reasoning.
On a Bitcoin standard, the organization with the most inefficient bureaucracy and the greatest infestation of parasites dies. It does not “live long and prosper.”
Thanks for sharing. The themes of that article are all important ones, but I disagree about the fine points of some of them, which leads to a radical deviation in perspective in key areas. Perhaps the clearest and simplest relates to:
On a Bitcoin standard, bureaucracies go bankrupt. They cannot grow into the abominations we see around us today, in which useless idiots work bullshit jobs just to pretend like they’re doing something, when in fact, they’re leeches.
The huge problem with this is that ALL of the existing 'leeches' and bureaucracies are equally capable of becoming Bitcoin whales due to their prior activities - many probably already have. From here they are capable of being precisely the people he claims are the worst around - those who do nothing and add nothing to society. Despite the benefits of cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin, it is extremely dishonest to try to point the finger at almost everyone else while avoiding and denying our own involvement. To me, trying to make out like everyone who isn't into Bitcoin is literally evil is not really much different to Marx trying to say that everyone who has wealth is evil. The next Marx can easily come along and claim that it's the Bitcoin 'class' that are the leeches and set about executing everyone on the Blockchain! ;)
Well to a certain point this new generation is completely oblivious to the nature of fiat, authoritarian governments and ideologies. Most were newborns or not born when 9/11 happened and think anti-facist mean corporations and government must work together and tax us more for the greater good. It's nuts. But most, aside from being young and dumb, one could argue that anyone who was old enough to remember 9-11, the middle east wars, enron, wall street bail outs in 08 etc knows damn well fiat is controlled evil assholes who want us enslaved as well as had their pensions, income, hours at work and overall value of their savings diminished dramatically to prop up the 1%. Not to mention that these bail outs, in America at least, went to foriegn countries and corporations with 5% give or take actually going to the people who are the tax mules and has cause epic inflation. So yeah I would argue a majority of people know better.
They need to be fucked it only takes maybe 20 millon delegated to do some real damage to these ppl or we can organize and have attorneys look at it and if we have a case i dont care if i recover money i just care that they lose a lot of there money and personal resources off of hive bc they just ruin ppls lives nd literally curate themselves its a group that makes you think they are doing something good but literally vote each other and trade votes which is the example so im doin that now
I hate to sound like a broken record but since you elected to push this thread to Trending, I am going to take a shot at a little exposure.
The principal problem is the lack of counter-upvotes. These cost money. Upvoting stuff that was (will be DVed) hurts your investment. Your HP is going to earn less. For 99% of accounts, it makes no financial sense to protect the value of the platform that way. Among the top 1%, it might make sense but other business models are viable. That is why I pitched the DV incentivisation plan. Having more DVs in the system is a side-effect. The primary motivation is to allow people UV someone that is being nuked without losing money off their own pocket.
ya i totally forgot about your idea, i have to theory this more. but in essence, you're right. My idea was to at least remove the penalty for reversing a "bad" dv. if it cost money to be good, good luck having people be good. But the idea of incentivizing is pretty wild at first thought, but I don't hate it, It could actually work but cant say for sure yet. gnna jote this in Grammarly so i don't forget.
btw why did ur acct get nuked? has to be a story there
To be fair, one post is often not enough so feel free to browse through the rest of the posts. I know it is a lof clicks the way Hive frontends work but the signal to noise ratio is reasonable as I had enough incentive to refrain from posting my original gaming agenda.
I admit my F3B OOP is too low. I could be a terrible player or it could be a result of tightening up the opening range knowing the LAGs on my left.
what would solve it would be "anon" dvs + a counter that doesn't dilute the counterer at the very least, maybe incentivize negative curation as its arguable just as important as positive curation. anon dvs would require some sort of zero knowledge proofs which could be pretty costly to have developed. not impossible tho.
I do not think anonDVs help. An average user does not want to hurt anyone's feeling by DV. They are not going to make a post about an injustice they notice (correctly fearing a DV from the abuser). They are even quite likely to hit the UV button once. Then they realise they wasted resources and skip UVing next time.
All I want is allowing them to UV next time again.
I even tend to believe that anonDVs just invite everyone to abuse people they dislike the way only the whales can afford now.
Incentivised DVing only makes sense if people are accountable for their decisions. Not DVing anything at a loss needs to be a viable option. For some users, the fixed risk-free loss is preferable over pondering over taking chance by DVing carelessly and investing their time into finding something they can DV confidently.
Zeroing the penalty for careless behavior (ie. careless anonDVs even if not monetised) cannot be good.
I know you are discussing the two concepts separately but I do not think that is possible for anonDVs as they are one of the various available DV-incentivisation implementations.
Ok ill be downvoting all ofthe ppl downvoting then and using any accounts that have been targeted to upvote with 1% and let you downvote yourselves as well to just use that auto dv against all of you.
I think for most of us, it's not about content that is "controversial," especially since there is no reason for research, science, whistleblowers, and public data (the things being downvoted 100% by the person who upvoted this comment for $5) to be controversial.
The only reason people see it as controversial is because the corporations that run the media, FDA, CDC, WHO, etc have all spent BILLIONS and untold hours brainwashing people into believing obvious lies - even when they come clean months later, the average Joe Altleft is still going to rant and rave and live their life based on "news" that was false at the time, and is now admittedly false.
Ex: Masks, The jab, lockdowns, "too big to fail", WMDs in Iraq, the "Federal Reserve" (neither federal or a reserve bank), The Gulf of Tonkin, Tuskegee, DDT, and on and on and on.
If there are people on a platform attacking the visibility & earnings of those researching and bringing to light these most important issues to society, and the platform is designed for it and the witnesses don't want to change it - then we just have Facebook with 20 Zuckerbergs instead of one.
As you will see from our conversations below, this is one method amongst many options being worked on that should be employed. If the algorithm was made open source, many dapps could add a "community regulated / tweaked down voted" option on their trending page
If the algorithm was made open source, many dapps could add a "community regulated / tweaked down voted" option on their trending page
This is definitely something we need. Or even a little GUI settings area (like peakd has for so many things) where someone can toggle their own algorithm. There's all sorts of adjustments and tweaks someone might want to make...
Ignore upvotes from x, y, z
Ignore downvotes (all - or targeted)
Comments have weight on trending (maybe a slider of how much)
Sort by # of upvotes, not amount of $ rewards
Ignore certain tags/communities
Set one or more accounts (or everyone you follow) to where their votes count for double when decided what's trending for you.
and on and on and on.
It used to be a huge selling point that Steem just had a "trending" page based purely on upvotes... but that time is long past (probably since 2016), and now the "algorithm" is basically just that a few whales decide what's trending for everyone.
Obviously people have their own "feed" - but it's hard to discover new content there, and you can't sort it except by timestamp. There's also communities and their feeds, but you end up with similar issues...
There should definitely be an open source trending algo which is customisable by each user directly on the platform. This can then be coded as an API and implemented into the front end user interfaces of any platform wishing to give their users the flexibility.
Maybe you can haveva go at publishing a blog with a detailed specification as to the requirements?
This helps people like me to counter downvotes from people who oppose sharing of information about COVID tyranny.
It also helps keep a record of those who are creating an unpleasant environment on Hive by nuking original quality content because they disagree with it.
Those people are hereby put on notice to stop this behaviour which is damaging Hive.
This is a really good development thanks for pioneering it. Being able to see who downvoted who/what post is a good way to bring more transparency to the Blockchain, plus it will help to understand some of the reasons behind the downvotes and possibly how to avoid it.
now my one account i will be only upvoting them so they dv there own big votes which means i always get a nice curation reward off of there dimensions and will send them reports on what i make on them nd how much earnigns there dv took from theere post
Thank you, I appreciate this kind of content. It is relevant to my interested in the reward pool, not saying I like to see a bunch of down votes, or don't like to see downvotes for that matter, just saying I appreciate the insight.
The current gorup has a power trip with no check. There needs to be serious consequences like all of the dvs they ever gave get reversed to them forever until they run out and they lose all there hp that would stop the abuse to what they dont like to what reallyl should be dv
Well! I just finished reading through ALL the comments on this post!
I’m encouraged by what I read in the comments. A whole lot of in depth conversation around solutions and ways to innovate new and better ways to human on this blockchain.
Even this post serves as a method in which we can take our first collective steps to analyzed and decide AS A COMMUNITY if the above listed DV’s were justified or not. This level of transparency and accountability can also go a long way in aiding us as we find solutions.
THANK YOU @ura-soul for putting your valuable time into this endeavour. I can see that not everyone here has appreciated this effort and that in its self is very interesting… but primarily this has gotten the level of support and engagement needed to propel this important subject forward!
I look forward to seeing how this develops and what you are able to innovate in making this an even better reflection of the inverse of what is happening on the blockchain! Big UP’s from me! ☄️
EVERYTHING on this blockchain is public information except for encrypted memos from what I understand? If these stats are public, then I think an easier way to access / sort them would be great. I see trending / top stats for various activities all the time, both in posts and built into frontends. Not necessarily because I want to read all of those types of posts which get low scores, but as an author I'm definitely interested in knowing what people like and don't like. A quick look through trending and untrending could be quite helpful for some, myself included?
We dont decide its a few ppl lol they neeed to get seriously limited to what they can do and it should go though like a separate committee of everyone if you are going to literally auto dv ppl and good posts that auto dvs to so i really think you can get them on cirminal charges if you find any insider manipulation the SEC does not like thta shit and there deff doing it why else just dv anyone lower so you get more rewardss as a large holdr lool its so obvious thta is the best way to hide is literally looking like u do the opposite but i bet if you analyze it which i will be doing back to the start of steem for the ppl around that long calculating amounts and ppl and seeing if i can get in touch organize and then -ppl can finaly defend against these ppl by asking the group for a re vote to restore the money
What is wrong with removing downvotes altogether(for posts, not comments), upvotes pay the creator, and trending be based on number of votes, not the value of the votes?
If you read some of my earlier replies to the posters in question, it would be obvious. But to spare you the effort: I downvote some of the worst of the COVID-19 idiocy and demonization of the left. It is overrewarded, continually repeated, poorly thought out drivel that increases the chances that innocent people will die.
I do not see any reason to continually repeat why I downvote it, because I didn't find that the posters or their readers paid any real attention to what I wrote. So I do not think I must justify the downvotes, especially when the upvoters do not have to spend time justifying their upvotes.
Just so you know, if I were to be on the wildly illogical 'left'/'right' political spectrum, I would be more on the left - so that only leaves COVID content as your reason for downvoting me - but this particular post that you heavily downvoted is neither political nor about COVID.. so.. yeah.
Also hiveblocks.com/@azircon
And
hiveworld.com/@azircon
Not sure if the second one works or not.
Oh the drama, I looked at a few of the post, and I must say, a few of them were pretty drama driven.
No drama without music!
I downvote a lot, but I tell people why, and I am open to explanations if I am in the wrong. Some whales seem to have vendettas instead of merely policing spam, plagiarism, and reward pool abuse. I'll go through the list and see whose posts are still pre-payout and might be worth an upvote in an effort to counterbalance the whales.
Thanks! I haven't gone through them all but the top ones are often a zeroing of the account's reputation without any explanation.
I do not think the lack of explanation is an issue. I do know why my account was zeroed and I have no problem with the motivation.
Thanks a lot for the list and let me pitch an idea. I would love to see a list of top performing comments based on payout per word.
How much does the average letter cost? Interesting....
Who cares about the average? It is the outliers that are worth observing and thinking through. That is where you can learn the most about the world around you.
Some of these downvotes make a lot of sense, and there is some sketchy stuff to be uncovered, but others don't make a lot of sense at all. I am finding plenty of things that deserve downvotes and some that need counter-upvotes. We'll see how long my vote power lasts in both categories.
A lot of times folks get listed for some post and then the bots beat them to death evermore.
Hmm. We also see a single peculiar downvote on this very post...
Do you think I still get the chance to be forgiven if I would reform or its is just a hopeless case for me.
You'll have to take that up with whoever is downvoting you. You still have a reputation of 78. That is impressive. Was it gained during the days of vote-buying on Steemit, or earned by legitimate content creation? What got you where you are? Can you do it again from scratch, or by turning over a new leaf on this account?
I didn't bought upvotes because I know that it is frowned upon. I have my own niche mostly about myself and gained support as I also support my friends here.
I know that I made a mistake and apparently it infuriated powerful whales here so I was cancelled plus of course smaller accounts that are jealous about my achievements fueled those big stake holder's rage not to mention my opinion about the contentious fork.
Anyway if I maybe given another chance then of course I will be thankful and abide all by the written and unwritten rules.
I hope that the hive door is not permanently closed for me. I'm still waiting at it's doorstep.
I would love to see you back on Hive.
It saddens me the number of quality content producers who have been forced off Hive because of malicous downvoting.
I find them all on Blurt which is gaining at Hive's expense.
There is good anti-plagiarism activity, but also many quality posts were downvoted. Somebody does not like to see controversial topics discussed.
Exactly, yes.. It does not seem to be controversy in general that is the problem, but specifically the highlighting of topics that could hurt the agenda of the pharmaceutical industry and generally those who are seeking full spectrum dominance.
Yep, there are about 4 whales on Hive who want to make it as single-sided and anti-truth as Facebook or Twitter... Unfortunately Hive is based on Proof of Stake, so the only thing that matters here is who has the most money, so they're getting what they want.
If the fork didn't prove to people that the governance of DPoS is broken then this kind of downvoting shit should. If not for the wonderful old community that lingers on, this place would be completely overtaken by the voting bots.
It makes the Hive blockchain look like am embarassment to outsides, when they see posts getting nuked over differences of ideology.
You forget about numbers. Remeber the steem wars against JS. Together we are strong. We just have to all be involved more in the xonsensus on how hive and whatever front end should operate as
This is cool and a good way to allow the community to see who is being downvoted and can step in if they choose. This takes work to find this stuff, and of course, I'm sure a lot of what is being downvoted is rightfully so, but there is always stuff that gets "nuked" where it probably shouldn't have. I'll look into this list and start digging around and seeing if I can help.
I've said for a while Hive still has 2 polarizing issues that often get mixed up and lost in the weeds. There is a downvote problem on Hive. Actually, 2 downvote problems, to be precise. The first people are too overhanded with the downvotes, zeroing outpost repeatedly; even comments can "smother" another user. This is not good behavior if the person being targeted makes "legit" content, trying to get involved in Hive and join the ecosystem via gov token accumulation via earning it. This, in my eyes, can be a form of "censorship" in the fact that a bigger entity can deprive a smaller entity out of "earning" gov token via PoB (can still earn via DAO/witness.) So I don't like that and try to counter it when I see it, admittingly I need to add some more resources in this depo; I used to have an "anti-bully" account with a 500k stake to counter malicious DVs, I may look into this again.
The other problem is there are not nearly enough downvotes. This is mainly because downvotes are public, involve monetary value, and most do not like confrontation. So you have the ones that love confrontation overdoing it and the ones that do not like confrontation underdoing it. I'm not here to judge what should be what and if the payouts were all the same, and I saw a healthy amount of DV to Upvote ratio (like u see on web2 platforms with their like counters), then I would assume the free market is doing its thing. But when I go to post after post on trending and do not see a single downvote, I understand that we have a flaw there that can be improved. I have to automatically assume then that most content is "overvalued" simply because, in a healthy system, you have disagreements you have downvotes. If the ones being overhanded would lighten up, try to avoid nuking something to zero, esp if it has a lot of organic votes. Try to be in line with others, at least that is my advice. And to the ones not downvoting at all, do not be afraid to throw a small DV out there, even if it's a fraction of a penny; it just allows us to get to a place where we can have full curation which involves negative curation IE downvotes. That helps everyone on Hive.
Thanks for the upvote support - much appreciated - let's see how many of the downvoting accounts combine to nullify it. lol.
I have only looked through a small percentage of the 150 posts here, but I can see plenty that don't have an obvious reason for being downvoted to oblivion and where no comment was even provided by the downvoter. This feels akin to Facebook 'randomly' blocking posts or suspending accounts - it's really the worst possible situation for a network that is marketing itself as being an alternative to this stuff. It doesn't really matter if the post is still visible on the blockchain because no-one will see it there unless they look (which they won't). It's abundantly clear that certain entities are using witness rewards and other sources to build power with intent to have a high enough reputation to shut down any account whatsoever. I will update the next report to have more useful information that will help to make the more problematic downvotes more visible.
I think your point about there not being enough downvotes is debatable. Everyone has their own perspective of how they view community and how they view healthy interaction. A lot of people don't want to be the person who puts others down in their moment of glory. Some people are worried about retaliation if they downvote a whale. This is totally understandable, since it is clear that some of them seem to get turned on by downvoting others. The risk to benefit ratio of downvoting a whale's post (or one of their friends), means that few people will feel motivated to do it - and so we have, overall, few downvotes being cast.
Ultimately, proof of brain is about subjective valuation of content and the downvotes weren't originally intended to be used to show 'lack of brain' in the post - they were there for policing reward pool abuse really, afaik. Obviously, people can use Hive - within the code's parameters - in their own way, but we don't really have a shared vision or consensus on best practice in the community.
With perception management and information control being such a massive 'market' (which is part of why Web 2.0 companies being massively wealthy), it's understandable that people want to leave Web 2.0 behind. It's not so healthy to have web 3.0 products being run behind the scenes by people manoeuvring to place themselves in the position of information gatekeepers simply through the scale of their stake. Essentially, if we are serious about delivering on the promise of Web 3.0, there has to be very close attention paid to preventing centralisation. DPOS with witness voting as it stands, ironically, facilitates centralisation as much as it facilitates decentralisation. Whether or not the outcome is a good one seems to mostly come down to the actions of those with the most stake (which therefore includes the top 20 witnesses).
It's great to see you are engaging in these matters in a serious way that is pointing in the right direction. It's actually sad to me to see literally no other 'whales' even paying attention. The claim made by some of the downvoters is that actually the whales want this downvoting to happen, I can't say if that is true or not. Your plan to set aside funds for downvoting is great to hear - maybe there's a way you can work with @r0nd0n to make that work more practically, without you needing to be a full time content cop yourself!
The reality, though, is that the downvoters have probably close to $10M between them, so I'm not sure how much of a difference this will make, but it's worth a go.
I just can’t understand why the affects you so much. I feel like you have missed the point of where hive is going. This conversation will be null and void in a year from now. Too many things being built that make downvoting for anything else but rewards disagreements useless. If anything I think your issue should be with the main blogging platforms, which unfortunately for them, cannot currently claim they are censorship resistant, at least until they have done further work on their trending algos . Your issue should not be making out like hive is a censorship tool, (which it is not). I think you need a bit of patience maybe until this system matures a bit more. It is not a censorship tool as you describe above. Some of the front ends are censorship tools. That is their issue, it is not hives fault that their trending algos are relatively unsophisticated
A quick fix would be to create a new front end from condenser or ecency and make the trending feed the downvoted content. Ppl could easily view what has been down voted and either upvote it from there or enjoy consuming them content from there directly. If this worked out, down voters who currently think they are downvoting to censor (which they are not) would have the difficult task of not being able to zero rewards in order to keep it off of trending on both the front end i talk about above as well as the major front ends on hive which unfortunately, at present, have stake based censorship in built into their trending feeds.
Some of the major front ends may do well to review this down vote list and have a way to legitimately restore the positions in the trending feeds so that the down voting of the few legit blogs only results in rewards disagreements, but not loss of position on trending prior to the down vote
Hive is fundamentally a blockchain, not a UI. So the most important decisions and structures exist at the blockchain level and probably always will. This means that while it is possible for UIs to adjust their appearance in order to accommodate certain scenarios, it will always be the blockchain that counts more. As I said in our recent chat, since society basically runs on money at this point, whether a creator is interested in money or not, he/she is forced to be because content creation is a constant contest for attention and the more resources people have, the more they can take part in that contest. Excluding money from discussion of the 'censorship' aspect is kind of cherry picking the situation.
The fact remains that the Hive blockchain, by design, allows people to draw attention to themselves via either quality content or just through having the most stake. The aim of those who do this mostly through using stake appears to be simply to make more profit, but they may also hive hidden ideological agenda or even be being paid to act one out covertly. The more that those with stake can dominate those who are the creators, the less the creators will want to be here - which serves the 'stake posters' up to a point as they get even more returns until the token price crashes.
So, essentially, we have a situation where people can get filthy rich (or richer) as a result of limiting the growth of other people - specifically. This is actually how capitalism in general works too, but fans of capitalism rarely admit this. I know first hand that some of the wealthiest people are more interested in stopping the growth of potential competitors than they are actually adding anything of value to the world. The more this problem continues, the more of a shitshow Hive will become, regardless of what UIs do. You can't sweep under the rug that a small number of people are doing whatever they can to absorb as much rewards as possible. Even if the downvoted posts remain visible, the reward pool will still be being reduced away from the will of the community and towards those who are willing to use downvoting as a profit generator.
I am fully open to layer 2 solutions resolving this and that's great - but we aren't there yet. As I said, I am just living in the present moment, responding to what arises.
Just please have some patience before u go on about hive being a censorship tool. It is not. Some of us have our cocks on the block building systems that cater to people like u.
I stopped chasing hive rewards years ago (I really did) I’m simply not interested in them. The earlier we get bloggers and creators away from reliance on the rewards the better. That will be much easier with other monetisation tools being built on hive such as value4value streaming, ad systems and donations systems as well as being able to easily earn in other cryptos such as eth and btc.
U are responding slightly prematurely IMO. If we start to fail at the ability be tools, hold us to account. But don’t say hive is a censorship tool. This is completely disingenuous and undermines the effort, time and money that people such as myself are putting in to build systems that solve problems specifically for ‘controversial’ creators such as you. Hey, come get stuck in and help us build. The time spent on these blogs would be much more affective it used building the tools
I am not saying that 'hive is a censorship tool', I have never said that. If it was then I wouldn't be here at all. All I'm saying is that with the parameters of downvoting set as they are and with the lack of features available to combat malicious downvoting, we have a problem. If I were 'king' of Hive, I would probably do a quick update to switch to only one free downvote per day - but only after doing analysis to predict what that would do. I would also look at doing the kinds of things that you are doing, it all needs to be done.
My psychology is one of hating lies and especially people presenting as if they are 'helping', when in fact they are fully and maliciously exploiting from behind a lie. This kind of thing has gotten more people killed on this planet than anything else (see: pretty much all wars ever). If I put time into helping to build something with the potential to genuinely improve society and maybe save lives in the process, I will obviously take issue with people trying to use it to do the opposite. Silence is both tacit consent and also complicity, so I am not silent.
I am happy to help out where I can with building next gen things on Hive. At present, though, I have debts to pay following my trip to Australia to help my friend there and several big (non hive) projects too. I would need 3 or 4 of me to be able to find more time to do other things in a useful way that doesn't result in mental breakdown. lol. So basically, I have limited time to do anything at all unpaid - I haven't even done the vacuum cleaning. ;)
Maybe your message is being miss construied then. It feels like u are attacking the base layer of hive. U? (and several others) are posting on blurt and the message I’m getting back is that I are there because u are being censored on hive. To be clear, U are not being censored on hive. I may agree that U are being censored on peakd and hive blog and any other platform that only uses the hive upvote balance on content to drive their trending feed. But the over all message here is that ppl are leaving due to censorship and rewards disagreements. The latter, yes, but the former needs to be taken up with the front ends, not hive IMO. alternatively keep building new tools like we are to solve these issues
That's not me, I've never even logged in to Blurt.
I woild avoid austria for now. Things are getting pretty hextic at this moment. Hundred thousands on the street and the gov is sending their army to force lockdown on all.
How is anyone responding prematurely to a product that has been around for 5 years at this point? I've been here for 4 years and we were getting downvoted back then too.
Like I said, most of these issues will be a mute point in a year from now with the monetisation and community driven censorship tools that are being created atm. These are not being taken into account and so I believe that these points are premature.
I'm not sure what you are referencing beyond Threespeak, was there something else?
Have you read the SPK network light paper?
There's whitepapers, bluepapers, lightpapers, etc. I've read the gist of it at some point in the past sure. I try not to read too much into anything, prefer to see it when it is finished.
I look forward to it.
There is only a light paper on SPKnetwork. There will probably end up being a white paper as the technicalities of the code are built out.
We look forward to building it. If it goes well, it will change a lot of the grounds for the frustration in this post thread
I meant in general, theres tons of whitepapers/bluepapers/lightpapers out there for tons of projects and I try to read a bunch :) Time constraints! heh
We've been hearing various promises and reasons that we should just wait for things to get better, since 2016. At the start of Steem, there were whales using their stake to shut down accounts who annoyed them, creators they disagreed with, etc.
Over the years, there have been waves of high & low, there have been quiet periods and full on flag wars, and all along the way those who challenge the corporate propaganda narrative have been getting downvoted (not for quality, plagiarism, or over-rewarding, but simply for challenging the lies), and that has sky-rocketed since 2020, as more creators and content have been looking for homes that won't censor them like FB, Twatter, etc.
My blog is the perfect example of how they are only down-voting based on their dogmatic ideology - they don't care if I make over $60 a post for my videos, but if I mention the jab or censorship, they 100% DV it, even if it was a much more in-depth research piece, that took me dozens of hours to put together.
Yes. I have been here, working my balls off full time, that whole time. I know the history well. So well, that I’m contributing to making these types of discussions nullified. I’m tired of hive being classed as a censoring system, when I do not believe it is at all. Some of The front ends censor, I agree, but the solution to that is to get ones head down and build solutions IMO.
Would you consider trying to change your thinking away from anything to do with the reward pool? Chasing it creates toxicity and negativity. Once one isolates themselves from any involvement in the garnering of attention or monetary incentive by being rewarded from the pool, It changes the paradigm in which one sees hive.
Hive is the perfect censorship resistant system. It’s better than anything out there, by far. It’s not completed yet, that’s for sure. There are various things being built (partly by me and other amazing hiveans) to leverage it’s censorship resistant capabilities. The rewards pool will become a relatively insignificant piece of the hive eco system over time. Due to community driven content regulation policies and content gateways as well as income streams that do not rely on the rewards pool. Hopefully the main blogging platforms will evolve their trending systems over time too. If they do not, ppl will build their own systems and the free market will fill the gaps.
Oh yeah, I'm definitely down to move the focus of voting, and the PoS elements, away from $$
I've been brainstorming and trying to get going a few projects (whether layer 1 or 2) for quality news distribution (downvotes only for plagiarism, no sources, etc.), Freedom Cells, and various other needs/communities to be covered. I like the idea of voting stake only being earned through receiving votes, and not able to be bought/sold - with a totally separate currency for tipping, buying etc.
While I agree with this at the base code level, that is outweighed by that history, and the Stake that exists (maliciously downvoting those who disagree with them, thus slowing the stake growth of both creators & curators of differing opinions - maintaining their monopoly.)
For it to work, the experiment would have to be re-run, with clear intentions & principles. Trying to change the system from the inside, when the "law" (the code) can be changed any time by those in charge... Sounds familiar.
If you did a Fair launch, across people who all agreed to a much more specific ethos, then we could get somewhere new, very quickly.
Good points. Sounds like u need to fork. I’m going to focus on hive tho. There will be so many other monetisation tools that chasing rewards from the pool will be kind of frowned upon in the future. Using ur external rewards to buy more hive in order to affect governance, well that will be another thing. Platforms and users will of course have to hold hive for resource credits, although even that will radically change with resource credit delegations.
I understand what you are saying but as someone on the receiving end of this list, I am in a better position to understand someone at gunpoint not buying the "Relax, in one year we have a voting system to decide if the bullet goes out or not" stance.
Do you understand the censorship is not limited to the trending feed? I am not talking of the fact you have to actively click on "Display comment" to read this (which is quite soft of a censorship but still a hurdle IRL). I am talking of the fact that a base level post is not shown even in the Recent feed. Nor you get a notification I replied to you or tagged @starkerz (unless you happen to be on a cool frontend). That is an actual dealbreaker and it is no coincidence multiple DVers off the list have openly sweated their targets' reputation score.
I root for the alternative frontend but once it is live it is still - you know - an alternative frontend for the minority that is censorship-(over)sensitive.
Threespeak doesn’t do trending this way. Ura is never censored on threespeak trending front end. When we release our blogging front end we will just give the option to select which type of trending you like
I appreciate your effort in offering me a safe chambre separee but I prefer a fair fighting ground in the open.
Being fixed on the Trending part is clearly not going to win me for your platform as you are ignoring the POV I tried to explain.
I know it is not your fault that a political DVer overrewarded your comment that is essentially asking to hide people behind the wall. I will try not to DV it. Seven days is a long time and I can have a bad moment. If I do, it is nothing personal. I trust you to make the life behind your wall as tolerable as possible but I do not want it to be the only option for the people who have supported me (even if I do not share their agenda).
I really do not think my DV would wake you up if that UV did not. I just hope it would be understandable on a human level in case it happens.
I thinknit better if it had its own feed rather than having on trending. And the feed was public. That way, as we all know, would ha e the chance to see what has been taken off. So no more invisible posts. Its all accounted for and displayable on the front end. Except for, extreme nsfw ofcourse such as pornographic material, pedophelia, real gory content, etc.
That my opinion on that.
Im loving this conversation.
yup
This is a great comment, and definitely addresses that two-sides-of-the-same-coin issue that we face around down-votes.
Between the 4-5 people with millions of stake, more than happy to zero out accounts and hide posts with dozens of real comments... and the thousands of people with not enough stake to matter, or who are still traumatized (mildly joking) from the previous whale wars and flag wars on Steem... it's a mess out there.
The problem here is (from what I've seen in the past), down-voting anything that hasn't already been approved by hivewatchers or steemcleaners is a good way for someone to get on the radar of those DV-Whales, and have their account zero'd out because of it, and/or having the posts & comments of people they support attacked, if they don't have their own content to be downvoted.
I stopped using the DVs on tribesteemup because of that simple fact: I was only downvoting actual shitposts/spam, but because some folks with stake didn't like it (haejin at that point I believe), they zero'd out dozens of posts from as many people, just because tribesteemup had voted on them.
This is certainly the case with many in this list.
Part of the issue is that this is pretty one sided. It's people downvoting posts in our #informationwar or #deepdives that doesn't fit the MSM narrative they have been fed, so they see it and nuke it. Some accounts continually get nuked just for questioning why they were nuked(something bernie used to do and not many countered it).
In the #informationwar and #deepdives community there have been 5 or 6 people that I personally know that had a combined stake of over 250k HP, who powered it down and sold it off this year due to constantly getting downvoted.
Our @informationwar and @deepdives account combined projects so that we have more upvote power in order to counter DVs in our communities, but it isn't always enough.
We have been manually curating for over 4 years and have a solid mission(link in our about section on @informationwar). I am trying to get more delegations to @informationwar so that we can continue to manually curate and get some sort of reward, it's super tough to read for 30 to 60 minutes every day for a part time curator while earning like 4 or 5 Hive from curation rewards/day.
Some of the larger projects have like 5 to 10 people curating and they have huge delegations and followings. Our group has just been puttering along for awhile, and we have an influx of new people posting into our communities that are seeing the censorship can be worse here, your rep can get zeroed and all your posts never show up unless someone already follows you.
I agree with downvoting obvious spam/theft of content and stuff not labeled NSFW that should be, but other than that I don't understand why people focus on "over rewarded" content for only the political realms and not for everything else. I don't see anybody downvoting the 50 to 200 USD posts about travel blogs/food blogs and other stuff that is likely stolen content by content farmers. Most of the posts on trending take almost no thought to make and are just blindly upvoted by whales to get their curation rewards.
Maybe one day the truth community will have a lot more power and be able to better defend ourselves, but seriously, nobody and I mean nobody in the truth community is downvoting these posts on trending and if there's anything that certainly needs to be "adjusted downwards" for being overrewarded its every single post that is in the top 100. We could go on a huge downvoting spree and rile up all our 100+ upvoters in the curation trail to start handing down -50USD downvotes to these posts(which is aboutt what we could do) but we don't do that ever and don't plan on it. Instead we get downvoted without ever having downvoted others first, while those same downvoters give out huge upvotes to pure garbage that can be found on instagram/twitter.
And the second that our group started getting DVers out there, you better believe all the whales would crash down on us ever harder. Posts in #informationwar or #deepdives would never be positive again if we all started downvoting the shitposts the whales are upvoting. It's too one sided.
That's my .02 Hive.
@gringalicious was run off the platform. Just a food blogger who apparently got into a fight with the spam patrol. She did re-post her off-blockchain blog content, and recycled some old posts, so she wasn't squeaky clean, but it became a fight that ruined her effort to return and start fresh.
@krnel @logiczombie @lucylin @frot @dwinblood, and multiple others I don't remember off the top of my head, powered down most of their stake and got rid of it due to downvoting.
I think if you summed up just the ones I named, it would have been over 250k HP if memory serves.
Thankfully they are still posting on the chain though, and we are able to reward them with our @informationwar + @deepdives curationt trail.
If only people understood the real information war is won by evidence and argumentation instead of blanket downvoting. A lot of the stuff in those communities is nonsense, but that's part of freedom of the press. I can see the argument for downvoting falsehood, but as I noted in a prior post (now past payout) about web2.0 social media, our goal here should be discourse even if we're dealing with Brandolini's Law.
I think I was as high as 26000 Steempower when I began powering down. That was quite a bit back then.
A lot of what most people think of as "press" is nonsense propaganda that is pushed by people who have no problem lying about anything and everything.
The "news" and the "press" has always been ideological throughout the history of the written and spoken word. To control information is to control the narrative, whether it is overtly false or not. In the USSR everyone knew the propaganda was bullshit, but they had to tow the party line or get put into a gulag. In the USA and many western societies we are under an illusion that news organizations are truth warriors and try to report stories accurately/fairly/truthfully/factually and without prejudice, we just haven't had our gulags in the USA yet, but it will come eventually. Every empire collapses given enough time.
Nicholas Sandman successfully had CNN settle with him and is currently in the process of getting settlements from all the other major news, who all lied and smeared him as a racist who did something to an Indian man. Even though the entire encounter was on video, the MSM chopped up the video and spread it around for months and they cut it up to fit their narrative of "white person does racist thing" despite him not doing anything racist.
This is one example among hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands over the years of outright lies, EVEN WHEN we can look up the truth ourselves and see the entire video of the encounter. Iraq's WMDs that the MSM lied us into war with, etc.
The danger doesn't come from "alt-news" that barely has any views, it comes from "Cathedral", the "orthodoxy", the "religious" who consume MSM propaganda and never challenge it ever. These are hugely centralized power structures of 5 major corporations who control almost exclusively "the news" and what politicians and regular people "trust" and do. The danger is from uncritically believing what Don Lemon on CNN tells you, when he says "maybe Malaysian flight that was lost years ago flew into a black hole", yes he really said that, and he wasn't kidding(go watch him say it).
You're not going to find almost any "danger" in our communities that you call nonsense.
I have written extensively on the nature of journalism as we know it. Yellow journalism never went away. It just wore a mask of fake neutrality between ww2 and the dawn of the internet.
There is a lot of nonsense in the alternative media, though. Alex Jones has been right about a lot, but wrong about a lot, too. He's just the highest profile example, of course. We need to exercise discernment most when we find ourselves in agreement with someone else's biases and conclusions.
I agree. I stopped listening to AJ and focused more on listening to people like Dave Smith/Tom Woods.
I got sick of seeing other people down voted. I never really got hit by a big brigade. I had maybe a handful of my posts brigaded but that's about it. I just got tired of the hypocrisy and seeing it done to others.
im pretty sure there is law suit we could file calculating all the damages and bankrupt the ppl doing this
Didn't they make downvoting free? That seems a ripe for abuse.
Yes
Yep... Because they decided we needed more downvoting...
Yes, but it also removed the cost for policing spam. Before, fighting spam and abuse meant foregoing curation rewards. The people working hardest for blockchain integrity and reward pool abuse correction were effectively hobbled. That was bad, too.
COnsidering myself and others were delegating power to them to offset that often I don't think that was as much a factor. Creating additional accounts for that purpose and then allowing people to delegate power to them worked. Also if they begin to misuse that power the delegations could be removed.
Now they can just abuse without cost.
Maybe this comment thread is an appropriate place to point out how there is no rhyme or reasoning to downvotes and they often seem to represent the views of individuals when downvoting on political content specifically or in this case Upvoting what seems to plagiarized Racist memes by two witnesses, one having significant stake and the other arguably the most active with comments. Continued silence by the witnesses on downvotes and silence on witnesses support for racist plagiarized racist memes is tiresome. Downvotes are not being used to protect the rewards pool. BULLSHIT look at trending.
https://peakd.com/someeofficial/@brundlefly/stupid-white-cracker-asses
Most of the trending page is nonsense, upvotes by whales.
Whales were downvoting some stuff in IW/DD that was earning less than 50 USD, now they are currently upvoting posts for 200 to 300 with the price of Hive being 2.40 USD +(not downvoting them, which would align with their supposed "downvoting for being over-rewarded" mantra they chant). It's always ok for them to do what they want, always bad for others to do the same.
Yeah its a problem for sure. In my opinion the greatest problem with this DV thing becomes when racism and threats of violence is totally ok but anti-government content that is directed towards centralized people like gates or harmful untested medical procedures that is purely experimental gotta go? We really do have pro fiat pro government whales, racist witnesses and wanna be cosmic jesters but having our activist celebrity like accounts being fake or inactive doesn't help either.
Silence by witnesses or DV by witnesses that have the support of the community while the community ignores the witnesses actions is pretty concerning and a gross form of governance when the people want a phatty upvote and will be willing to keep their mouth shut for one... kind of like at work.
I am quite surprised to see @theycallmedan and his response to DVs. I always thought he was a counter to the flags but I guess not when you need votes to get a proposal passed and the people that have them are the flaggers allegedly. Now maybe he has been too busy building speak network to notice but the flags are happening in one of threespeaks main communities. I knew of @threespeak way before joining Steem in '17 because they supported a few of my favorite content creator on youztube.
Just weird that the community supports projects by people who are so hostile and seemingly pro fiat the way they down vote the kind of content they do. Its actually quite gross and alarming that such large stake is used to support the oppression of content that goes against centralization and fiat.
There's probably only really a few projects on the chain that are pro decentralization.
Seems like most of the people here and content posted now is just fluff stuff easily found on other social media platforms.
@informationwar has been doing its thing for like 4 years now in our #informationwar tag and #deepdives is going to release a token soon for this kind of thing. We teamed up with @v4vapid to get better support out to all the people who are continually archiving important imformation.
EVEN IF all the posts in IW/DD or similar communities are taken down to 0 rewards, at least the information is still there. I'm a glass half full kinda guy haha! But in all seriousness, we are going to continue to try and grow our support. Hive price going higher will certainly help that, now our upvotes are worth more $ so we can upvote 50 people now and give out the same rewards in $ as we could last month and only do 25 people.
Gotta keep fighting and pushing forward and we aren't going away!
Nice! I love what Leo and POB is doing. Their content is seo optimized it seems and hive blockchain rewards are not included on their front end from what I can tell. Supposedly the one of the main selling points of the speak network was to be able to by pass the DV system and curate content more dynamically but the response left here by Dan on this thread was disheartening and tone deaf I feel.
Glad to see V4vapid more active (or at least not on a autovoter like I suspected initially) and that tokenized solutions are finally happening for the activist/anti-centralization communities like information war and Deepdives.
We all manually curate, but follow eachother upvotes on the hive.vote curation trial of informationwar or deepdives.
Following either one of those helps us reward posts in #informationwar #deepdives #politics #news etc.
I joined forces with him to better reward the communities.
If you like what @informationwar is doing it would be awesome if you delegated some HP to our cause , follow the curation trail on hive.vote or if you like manually upvoting stuff browse through and find stuff you like in our tags/communities :)
We will take all the support we can get, trying to onboard larger names in the social media world also via our reachout on twitter/youtube.
My experience with the activist community recently was extremely disheartening with how I saw the egregious and hostile attacks by witnesses and large stake holders in both deep dives and information while engaging daily on content in the communities not to mention lack of support and attacks from within the community that was reported to the FBI and caused unnecessary police presence in my neighborhood and helicopters over my house for days.
I really got 0 to minimal support from the community with the exception of @kennysgaminglife who has always, when push came to shove, supported these communities and myself. So I can not complain too much. It is just if community members wont support my content and make threats of violence on me while hivewatchers sits by, laughs and DMs me to say stop upvoting comments, we condone threats of violence with our silence but not upvoting comments so watch out.
So I am not excited about these communities on HIVE that should be better supportted in a decentralized crypto space. But plutocracy has soured the experienced.
I will consider delegating HP to your cause but the downvotes and lack of witness support and silence for these hostile attacks in our communities of Truth really impacts my mental health negatively.
Chasing high APRs, curating artists and posting about tokens has helped me better use HIVE.
I didnt spend 5g on Hive power delegation to curate content just to be dissed and ignored by the entire community or have the content I curated flagged to 0 causing unneeded financial stress.
This specific post you made was upvoted by deepdives at the time.
People reported you to the FBI and they flew helicopters over your house? I am not sure what this is supposed to mean or what you are referring to.
The curation trail of Deep Dives + Informationwar is over 500k HP in total. We can't upvote every post, we upvote the majority of them in #informationwar #deepdives or in the iw/dd community.
The support we have has been built up over 4 years and we continue to grow. We have upvoted many posts that get downvoted in our communities and most of the time we easily overpower the downvoter, that has changed in the last few months as larger downvoters are downvoting. We are growing as best we can. I've put thousands of hours into this project over the years, its extremely time consuming. If you know how we can raise tons of HP and become able to negate downvotes I am all ears, if you want to start getting the word out to others and putting 10 hours + each week into growing the effort, or start your own effort, please do. We need all the help we can get. This is extremely time intensive and stressful for what we do and we get nothing for it as we are all volunteers.
I don't see any posts you made in the last 3 years that were informationwar type posts on your main name? Am I missing something? Most of your posts on https://hive.blog/@dynamicgreentk/posts are also not within the scope of Informationwar, I see we upvoted a few of them that were when you did post them. We only upvote specific posts related to the effort. https://hive.blog/informationwar/@informationwar/about-the-decentralized-truth-movement-and-informationwar
I don't blame you for not liking what's happening, I don't like it either. But let's also be real about whats happening here, the super majority of posts are not downvoted to 0 in #informationwar or #deepdives, a few are occasionally, so this isn't an all out war that everyone should be super stressed out about. When the downvotes happen we step in and negate them and move on with our day. We have tried reasoning with whales before and they don't want to hear it, there's nothing else that can be done in negotiating with them at this point, they downvote we upvote, we have more upvotes than them.
If everyone pulled together we could stop this permanently, there are more minnows and dolphins than there are whales, the minnows and dolphins combined have way more HP than whales do. We could outvote them as witnesses and get people into power who would do good things. We aren't there yet, though that movement is starting to take off.
There is a reason I still have my infowars token staked. I figured they were from you. I looked at deepdives and information war as the same community especially since tags are similar.
Did you look at the link I provided and read the comments? The person making multiple threats of violence was who was reported but still caused unneeded police presence in my life for days. just giving an example.
I dont just aimlessly consume content as not everyone can be a @ura-soul who in my opinion is the most well versed and solid content creator for the truth communities. There is a lot of people who want to focus on youtube personalities and Q larps that I honestly cant digest. Seeing such an intelligent and well informed individual getting ruthlessly attacked it disheartening.
The witness votes expiring is something to look forward too but how impactful it will be is to be determined as some are concerned they can simply use their stake to vote for themselves or their friends which highlights how community governance really only applies to the amount of stake one holds.
As I have said in comments outside this thread, I think DPoS will take some time to even out on to the community in regards to witness voting and governance to better reflect the community as a whole. As it is though everything seems reflective of real life on HIVE in comparison to the real world so perhaps we have transcended or added to DPoS in weird way outside of stake.
Maybe these people you onboard can be more of JamesC types that invest into the community and help increase the overall stake of the community. I agree things can change over night. I appreciate your steadfast commitment to the community.
Thanks for your kind words and support. I am working on a website for Hive that should be live in the near future that hosts Untrending (downvote) info as well as shows the effect that the witness decay system would have if it were live right now, so at least we can know what the future holds in that sense.
Bringing in wealthier information specialists and 'truthers' into the blockchain is a great idea but my attempts to do that so far haven't gone anywhere - partially because people don't see a clear 100% reliable investment and partially for silly reasons, such as that they don't find the UI and signup process straightforward enough!
Yeah downvoting key people like @lukewearechange (which last I saw that was happening less since it was shown his support for hive on twitter and amount of traffic he brings to hive.) and @highimpactflix does not help with onboarding when people like Tim pool who is building a huge business is close buddies with Luke and undoubtedly sees and understand the situation clear since it has carried over from Steem. Heck, I can not even tell if Highimpactflix was hacked recently or took back over his account from the people that manage it or if Luke really is managing his own account since it would appear he does nothing with his earnings here and only reposts his youtube videos.
There is a reason content creators chose LBRY over hive for content creation and why LBRY is more successful than it should be can arguably be attributed to the years of massive downvotes towards the hyper connected truth community that moves together as they are either censored, banned or downvoted where ever they go because of centralized interests.
LBRY and most/all other options are actually centralised by design and this will most likely become more of a problem as more time passes and more experience is gained. I think that a layer 2 solution on Hive has the best chance of providing a true solution for 'the truth community', but in 100% of the examples of these people trying to solve the problem that I have seen so far, they either lack understanding or get greedy - leading to not much at all. Donald Turnip's 'Truth' network will be the next big flop most likely. lol.
Yeah @theouterlight lost me when he admitted to posting to rumble the very supposed exclusive content that was made available to Hive and his personal web 2 site. But really that was the last straw as he stopped doing doing docs and refused to do his own research on Ivermectin and simply phoned a friend on it.
I think whoever created LEO's front end as well as seo optimized it is brilliant. Perhaps @leofinance devs can help or provide pointers. But I am sure you got this. You are hyper intelligent and nothing can stop you.
Provide a platform to highlight downvotes is brilliant and kind of makes these people building projects on Hive maybe think twice before downvoting to be jester or because they want to destroy an account because of political reasoning.
https://peakd.com/hive-122315/@dynamicgreentk/ivermectin-what-is-it
On a Bitcoin standard, the organization with the most inefficient bureaucracy and the greatest infestation of parasites dies. It does not “live long and prosper.”
Thanks for sharing. The themes of that article are all important ones, but I disagree about the fine points of some of them, which leads to a radical deviation in perspective in key areas. Perhaps the clearest and simplest relates to:
The huge problem with this is that ALL of the existing 'leeches' and bureaucracies are equally capable of becoming Bitcoin whales due to their prior activities - many probably already have. From here they are capable of being precisely the people he claims are the worst around - those who do nothing and add nothing to society. Despite the benefits of cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin, it is extremely dishonest to try to point the finger at almost everyone else while avoiding and denying our own involvement. To me, trying to make out like everyone who isn't into Bitcoin is literally evil is not really much different to Marx trying to say that everyone who has wealth is evil. The next Marx can easily come along and claim that it's the Bitcoin 'class' that are the leeches and set about executing everyone on the Blockchain! ;)
Well to a certain point this new generation is completely oblivious to the nature of fiat, authoritarian governments and ideologies. Most were newborns or not born when 9/11 happened and think anti-facist mean corporations and government must work together and tax us more for the greater good. It's nuts. But most, aside from being young and dumb, one could argue that anyone who was old enough to remember 9-11, the middle east wars, enron, wall street bail outs in 08 etc knows damn well fiat is controlled evil assholes who want us enslaved as well as had their pensions, income, hours at work and overall value of their savings diminished dramatically to prop up the 1%. Not to mention that these bail outs, in America at least, went to foriegn countries and corporations with 5% give or take actually going to the people who are the tax mules and has cause epic inflation. So yeah I would argue a majority of people know better.
We did not make infowars token, that was @ackza I believe. We don't have a token for the informationwar group.
v4vapid is releasing a deep dives token soon.
I hope we can get more people like JamesC into the community, we are trying.
They need to be fucked it only takes maybe 20 millon delegated to do some real damage to these ppl or we can organize and have attorneys look at it and if we have a case i dont care if i recover money i just care that they lose a lot of there money and personal resources off of hive bc they just ruin ppls lives nd literally curate themselves its a group that makes you think they are doing something good but literally vote each other and trade votes which is the example so im doin that now
I hate to sound like a broken record but since you elected to push this thread to Trending, I am going to take a shot at a little exposure.
The principal problem is the lack of counter-upvotes. These cost money. Upvoting stuff that was (will be DVed) hurts your investment. Your HP is going to earn less. For 99% of accounts, it makes no financial sense to protect the value of the platform that way. Among the top 1%, it might make sense but other business models are viable. That is why I pitched the DV incentivisation plan. Having more DVs in the system is a side-effect. The primary motivation is to allow people UV someone that is being nuked without losing money off their own pocket.
ya i totally forgot about your idea, i have to theory this more. but in essence, you're right. My idea was to at least remove the penalty for reversing a "bad" dv. if it cost money to be good, good luck having people be good. But the idea of incentivizing is pretty wild at first thought, but I don't hate it, It could actually work but cant say for sure yet. gnna jote this in Grammarly so i don't forget.
btw why did ur acct get nuked? has to be a story there
Loose lips sink ships.
To be fair, one post is often not enough so feel free to browse through the rest of the posts. I know it is a lof clicks the way Hive frontends work but the signal to noise ratio is reasonable as I had enough incentive to refrain from posting my original gaming agenda.
I admit my F3B OOP is too low. I could be a terrible player or it could be a result of tightening up the opening range knowing the LAGs on my left.
what would solve it would be "anon" dvs + a counter that doesn't dilute the counterer at the very least, maybe incentivize negative curation as its arguable just as important as positive curation. anon dvs would require some sort of zero knowledge proofs which could be pretty costly to have developed. not impossible tho.
I do not think anonDVs help. An average user does not want to hurt anyone's feeling by DV. They are not going to make a post about an injustice they notice (correctly fearing a DV from the abuser). They are even quite likely to hit the UV button once. Then they realise they wasted resources and skip UVing next time.
All I want is allowing them to UV next time again.
I even tend to believe that anonDVs just invite everyone to abuse people they dislike the way only the whales can afford now.
Incentivised DVing only makes sense if people are accountable for their decisions. Not DVing anything at a loss needs to be a viable option. For some users, the fixed risk-free loss is preferable over pondering over taking chance by DVing carelessly and investing their time into finding something they can DV confidently.
Zeroing the penalty for careless behavior (ie. careless anonDVs even if not monetised) cannot be good.
I know you are discussing the two concepts separately but I do not think that is possible for anonDVs as they are one of the various available DV-incentivisation implementations.
kindly vote me one time plz
Ok ill be downvoting all ofthe ppl downvoting then and using any accounts that have been targeted to upvote with 1% and let you downvote yourselves as well to just use that auto dv against all of you.
Can’t someone just create a front end for the down voted blogs? A little additional creation and u got all the “controversial content” u like
I think for most of us, it's not about content that is "controversial," especially since there is no reason for research, science, whistleblowers, and public data (the things being downvoted 100% by the person who upvoted this comment for $5) to be controversial.
The only reason people see it as controversial is because the corporations that run the media, FDA, CDC, WHO, etc have all spent BILLIONS and untold hours brainwashing people into believing obvious lies - even when they come clean months later, the average Joe Altleft is still going to rant and rave and live their life based on "news" that was false at the time, and is now admittedly false.
Ex: Masks, The jab, lockdowns, "too big to fail", WMDs in Iraq, the "Federal Reserve" (neither federal or a reserve bank), The Gulf of Tonkin, Tuskegee, DDT, and on and on and on.
If there are people on a platform attacking the visibility & earnings of those researching and bringing to light these most important issues to society, and the platform is designed for it and the witnesses don't want to change it - then we just have Facebook with 20 Zuckerbergs instead of one.
As you will see from our conversations below, this is one method amongst many options being worked on that should be employed. If the algorithm was made open source, many dapps could add a "community regulated / tweaked down voted" option on their trending page
This is definitely something we need. Or even a little GUI settings area (like peakd has for so many things) where someone can toggle their own algorithm. There's all sorts of adjustments and tweaks someone might want to make...
It used to be a huge selling point that Steem just had a "trending" page based purely on upvotes... but that time is long past (probably since 2016), and now the "algorithm" is basically just that a few whales decide what's trending for everyone.
Obviously people have their own "feed" - but it's hard to discover new content there, and you can't sort it except by timestamp. There's also communities and their feeds, but you end up with similar issues...
There should definitely be an open source trending algo which is customisable by each user directly on the platform. This can then be coded as an API and implemented into the front end user interfaces of any platform wishing to give their users the flexibility.
Maybe you can haveva go at publishing a blog with a detailed specification as to the requirements?
This is really useful Ura.
This helps people like me to counter downvotes from people who oppose sharing of information about COVID tyranny.
It also helps keep a record of those who are creating an unpleasant environment on Hive by nuking original quality content because they disagree with it.
Those people are hereby put on notice to stop this behaviour which is damaging Hive.
No problem, I'll keep improving the data and presentation as time goes by :)
This is a really good development thanks for pioneering it. Being able to see who downvoted who/what post is a good way to bring more transparency to the Blockchain, plus it will help to understand some of the reasons behind the downvotes and possibly how to avoid it.
now my one account i will be only upvoting them so they dv there own big votes which means i always get a nice curation reward off of there dimensions and will send them reports on what i make on them nd how much earnigns there dv took from theere post
Thank you, I appreciate this kind of content. It is relevant to my interested in the reward pool, not saying I like to see a bunch of down votes, or don't like to see downvotes for that matter, just saying I appreciate the insight.
The current gorup has a power trip with no check. There needs to be serious consequences like all of the dvs they ever gave get reversed to them forever until they run out and they lose all there hp that would stop the abuse to what they dont like to what reallyl should be dv
Well! I just finished reading through ALL the comments on this post!
I’m encouraged by what I read in the comments. A whole lot of in depth conversation around solutions and ways to innovate new and better ways to human on this blockchain.
Even this post serves as a method in which we can take our first collective steps to analyzed and decide AS A COMMUNITY if the above listed DV’s were justified or not. This level of transparency and accountability can also go a long way in aiding us as we find solutions.
THANK YOU @ura-soul for putting your valuable time into this endeavour. I can see that not everyone here has appreciated this effort and that in its self is very interesting… but primarily this has gotten the level of support and engagement needed to propel this important subject forward!
I look forward to seeing how this develops and what you are able to innovate in making this an even better reflection of the inverse of what is happening on the blockchain! Big UP’s from me! ☄️
EVERYTHING on this blockchain is public information except for encrypted memos from what I understand? If these stats are public, then I think an easier way to access / sort them would be great. I see trending / top stats for various activities all the time, both in posts and built into frontends. Not necessarily because I want to read all of those types of posts which get low scores, but as an author I'm definitely interested in knowing what people like and don't like. A quick look through trending and untrending could be quite helpful for some, myself included?
We dont decide its a few ppl lol they neeed to get seriously limited to what they can do and it should go though like a separate committee of everyone if you are going to literally auto dv ppl and good posts that auto dvs to so i really think you can get them on cirminal charges if you find any insider manipulation the SEC does not like thta shit and there deff doing it why else just dv anyone lower so you get more rewardss as a large holdr lool its so obvious thta is the best way to hide is literally looking like u do the opposite but i bet if you analyze it which i will be doing back to the start of steem for the ppl around that long calculating amounts and ppl and seeing if i can get in touch organize and then -ppl can finaly defend against these ppl by asking the group for a re vote to restore the money
What is wrong with removing downvotes altogether(for posts, not comments), upvotes pay the creator, and trending be based on number of votes, not the value of the votes?
Because then someone could create 100,000 fake accounts, upvote their own posts to trending, and make themselves rich at the expense of everyone here.
I see your point, but I don't think it would make them rich. It would cost alot for the author's 100k fake accounts to upvote, no?
No, upvoting is free.
make more of these posts sir!!
@themarkymark @curangel @altleft
Why are you downvoting this content specifically? I hardly ever see you commenting about your disapproval of the content you are downvoting.
You must disagree with the 300+ people who are upvoting.. it'd be nice to know why, and to have an explanation.
good luck with that. 'disagree with rewards' is the coverall answer.
$400 (at the time of my downvote) was stupid for a post that is mostly an automated report on votes cast.
Just thot I'd ask.. thanks for the response
Not sure why, but ok.
If you read some of my earlier replies to the posters in question, it would be obvious. But to spare you the effort: I downvote some of the worst of the COVID-19 idiocy and demonization of the left. It is overrewarded, continually repeated, poorly thought out drivel that increases the chances that innocent people will die.
I do not see any reason to continually repeat why I downvote it, because I didn't find that the posters or their readers paid any real attention to what I wrote. So I do not think I must justify the downvotes, especially when the upvoters do not have to spend time justifying their upvotes.
Just so you know, if I were to be on the wildly illogical 'left'/'right' political spectrum, I would be more on the left - so that only leaves COVID content as your reason for downvoting me - but this particular post that you heavily downvoted is neither political nor about COVID.. so.. yeah.
Thanks for the reply.